Podcast Episode 5: Episode 212: What's Possible When AI Does the Heavy Lifting

Description

In this episode, Jon, Emily, and Nicole dream about what's possible for church admins and ministries when AI does the heavy lifting. Jon shares where AI is headed in 2026 and why writing the spec first pays off, with the Spark API Gateway story as proof.Nicole then makes the case for becoming a Rock Star. You don't have to be technical and the barrier to entry is lower than you think, you just have to start engaging now.Emily wraps up the conversation by showing how to turn James Clear's Atomic Habits into a working system inside Rock with workflows as the engine, Step Programs as the discipleship backbone, and AI Agents as the intelligence layer.Visit the show notes to find all the resources talked about in this episode. Don't forget to join the new Rock Cast Rocket Chat Channel to see what other churches are saying about this episode.

Transcribed Content

Hey, guys. Welcome back to Rockcast episode two twelve. Thanks for tuning in. Today, have a roundup of topics. John's gonna kick us off with AI and what's happening in that space. I'm gonna walk us through the Rock stars and why now is the best time to get started in the community. And Emily will close this off with James Clear's James Clear's Atomic Habits. You wanna start? Sure. Yeah. So AI, what's happening now? It feels every day, it's just, , new stuff coming out, and it's pretty crazy. But a couple topics. One is the further we go along, especially in this year, the gap is widening between organizations that are effectively using AI and those that aren't. And so that should be really worrisome to us. We wanna make sure that our organizations are understanding what's out there and are clearly using it because the ramifications and the efficiencies are just huge. And that kind of leads us to the first topic I wanted to talk about, is that there really are two ways to perceive or apply AI within your organization. One is called efficiency AI, and that's kind of a mindset that says, how can I work less because I'm using AI? Right? So I'm going to do the same amount of work, but it's gonna take less resources. And that's efficiency AI. And if you're listening inside the culture, that's probably what you're hearing a lot about. There's a lot of worrying about, well, we're not gonna need people. We're not gonna need these roles. Mhmm. However, there's a counterargument now being made, and and that's a a level of thinking that says, no. We should be thinking of opportunity AI. So efficiency AI says, do the same amount of stuff for less resources. Opportunity AI is the opposite. It's , use the same amount of resources, but get a lot more done. And I think as we shepherd our churches through this transition, we really have to keep focused on opportunity AI. I think the culture is gonna pull us into this topic, especially as we get into the election. AI is definitely gonna be a hot topic during the election. Mhmm. And everybody's on this kind of negativity of efficiency AI, and there will be some organizations that do that. However, we want to be working for we want to be shepherding and leading church churches and organizations that are seeing this as an opportunity to do more and to go further. So for instance, if your care pastor can set up some agents and get rid of ten hours of work off their plates every week, which I think is definitely doable, , what do they do with those ten hours? Mhmm. Do they go home early? Do we get rid of one tenth of our care pastors? Or instead, do we just ramp up the care teams? Do we ramp up and do more care, more personalized care? That's the kind of thinking that we should be working on. So, John, which of these do you see more of in churches today? Well, interestingly, I think most churches haven't reached the point where they have to make a decision. I think they're still tiptoeing through AI, but they're going to have to become to a point where they have to make that decision. And I think it's good to make that decision before you reach the point where you have to. Right? So it it should kind of change your mindset. From the very beginning, you need to choose which mindset you're going to have. Yeah. And that's that's a powerful reframing of your mindset. And, , now that AI is doing the heavy lifting, it's really freeing us up to create more and do more with that. Right. I mean, that it definitely has that capability. But if your mindset goes in to say, I don't want I wanna do less. Right. There's that tension within all of us, , well, I don't wanna have to work as hard. But I think that you're right. If we look at it from the mindset of what does this unlock for us, I kinda feel every day I'm going around thinking, well, this is I can't believe this is amazing. , this we're able to do this. Mhmm. But however, even just over the weekend, was some chatter on social media back and forth on some on some comments, and and someone just even posted, , oh, so churches are just gonna lay off half their staff? It's , where was that said? Right? Mhmm. In fact, I think the actual quote was actually much the opposite. , how much more are we gonna get done? But I think that just shows you where culture's kind of mindset is on that. Now the other topic I thought I'd bring up too is this thought around AI coding. We did a podcast recently about vibe coding, and so there's some more thinking and some more discord around this. So if we think about pretty much everything in life is a continuum, nothing is ever black or white. It's always somewhere in the middle. And so if we think about a continuum, and on one side of the continuum, we have vibe coding, is just one shot it, tell it what you want, and go get it. On the other side is what we've been doing for sixty years, which now has a term called artisanal coding. Oh. Yes. So that means we write every line of code by hand, and it's very artistic, at least you hope. It should be. So artisanal coding, vibe coding on the other side. Now this this other thinking is, , nothing's truly on ever on on the extremes, but there's this middle ground, which is called spec coding. And naturally, we've we've kinda ourselves falling into that because of just kind of our past and our training. And spec coding is basically, hey. Let's slow down. Let's talk through. Let's create a spec with the help of AI. , we're not writing the whole thing, but we're creating these detailed spec documents. And then you turn that over to AI to go code. And what people are finding is this is way better thing to do. So it is at least a much more mature code. Makes sense. It does feel right now people are just kind of vibe coding and hoping it all works out. And that's great for, , fun projects. , there's nothing wrong with that or doing maybe a prototype of something. But to think that that's gonna solve our need for systems that are very structured and and can, , power our organizations is is probably not not not gonna be the case. Little little utilities or little things you need, fun things, maybe a one off for a kids ministry, , topic. Yeah. Sure. Great. But to put all of your system and your organization onto that system is probably not where I'd want it. I definitely wanna be more in the spec at least. Makes sense. Yeah. This sounds a lot more work upfront, , because you have to build the system. Is it really worth doing all of that? Oh, yeah. I think so. Because it saves you, I mean, the amount of time it saves you is is huge. We recently had a need for some new features that are coming out that are are gonna need a bit of a what we call an API gateway. So APIs will use will come to our gateway, be adjusted, and then we'll proxy that off to another API. And so we need to to build this tool. So in the past, we probably would have gone and purchased an API gateway software. They're very expensive, and they didn't do exactly what we wanted. So instead, I just took pretty much a day and just wrote the spec. And so, yeah, it is a lot of work because you have to think through. You still have to have that domain knowledge of, , okay. Well, we need to have caching. And my goal is, , the APIs as they come through never hit, , hit the database. So we have to have this kind of caching. If I would have vibe coded it, it it would not have done that. , in fact, clearly, had to tell it, , just so , we need to cache this. Oh, yes. Of course. We'll cache this. ? And so we ended up with about a 30 page document of spec. Oh, wow. Wow. It sounds hard, but I mean, I I didn't write 30 pages. I just guided it in the creation of the 30 pages. Mhmm. And then at the end, we have this document, and then we go to AI and say, okay. Now split this document into phases for coding within the model that we were gonna use, and it created this as seven tasks. And then one at a time, we just feed it to tasks. And that would have taken, I mean, it's definitely would have taken at least a month to develop Wow. If we were writing it by hand. Because it wrote a whole bunch of, , tests, unit tests. It wrote integration tests. It wrote a website that is a basically a test harness so you can actually make requests through it. So it's I mean, even that that little test, , thing would have taken weeks to build. And then when we're done, we're , okay. Yeah. Now we need to do this other thing, and we want to do this because it it starts giving you all these other ideas of what else you can use it for. And so you go back and you write a spec for each one of those changes. And even those changes, a spec could be three to four pages. And then you review it and you read it to make sure that's great, and then you provide it with some changes, and you tell it to go write it. So definitely worth it. Yeah. Sounds it. Sounds very powerful and a time saver. Yeah. But you have to approach it with an organized way. And, again, I think that's what what's helpful for those who have experience in in writing the software. They know what to look for. They know what to ask for. All that to say is not everything is gonna go spec driven. There's there are some cases where we still need to do some artisanal coding, that there are some places within systems that you just wanna make sure that every line of code and that you've written that. And AI will will come along with you, but it'll be it'll be you're typing and it's watching and helping you versus doing the opposite where it's typing and you're helping it. So it's definitely not one or the other. Very interesting. So how long did it take again to write the spec versus the actual build? The spec was probably about a day, a full day. And then the build, I mean, honestly, it probably took in four hours, but half of that was, , not paying attention to that it's done and you're work , I'm working on something else. And you estimated it would have been maybe a month otherwise. Is that right? Yeah. At least. I mean, especially with that front end because the the front end console was just there. I put it in the specs. I wanted to be able to see it. I think I'd , it's just easier if you can actually see it go back and forth. And then the more I saw it, the more I'm , okay. Add this. Add this. It'd be cool if it did this. so yeah. And and a lot of times, I wouldn't even have added those features. It'd been , there's there's no justification for that. But when it can do it in fifteen minutes while I'm doing something else, then it's Right. , burning a lot of tokens, but tokens are fairly cheap. Sounds it is worth that upfront spec build. Definitely. Yeah. So I think it'd be interesting to see what what colleges, how they change a little bit. I mean, I think they still should teach development programming languages, but I think a lot more they're gonna be teaching systems concepts, architecture. And, again, it's gonna be interesting to see how AI even takes over some of that too. But Yeah. So, , for our Rock community, I would love to hear if you guys are listening, we have a Rockcast Rocket Chat channel that we created recently. So you guys can hop in there and you can share with us, , how are you using AI? What are you building right now? Are you using it, in your vibe coding? Are you creating your lava templates with it? So just share with us what you're doing there. So now I'd love to transition to rockstars, , as we're talking with the community. There's the phrase rockstars. And these are people who you might have heard about. And I promise you, they're not those who are , have been developing or our super technical people who've been in the code base since v one. They're not, our oldest community members. They're really just a group of people who go out of their way, who consistently go above and beyond to be incredibly helpful to, , the entire team and the rest of the community. And you'll know who they are, because they're constantly, , popping in and out of Rocket Chat, answering questions, connecting with new community members, and reaching out to new churches. And we have a saying that Rock stars are the ones who are really deep in the trenches with us, , shoulder to shoulder helping us further digital ministry. So there isn't a technical threshold or some kind of crazy ritual or test that you have to pass to become a Rock star. We really just measure Rock star status based on their interaction within the community. And we've tried to make this really fun by gamifying the process. So we award points for how, you interact and there's tons of ways that you can get involved. And I think it's really important to talk about because during the summer or fall, we have new Rock star nominations that are coming up. Mhmm. So we just wanna encourage the community to get involved. And the way we the process look works is that we look at all those who've been participating. And anybody that has, I think, around seven to 10 community points or more becomes a Rock star. And, , I just wanna really hit home that I think people don't really realize that the barrier to entry is pretty low. , we want the community to step up and become leaders. And so regardless of your technical ability or your role at the church, anyone can become a Rock star. So here's some quick, fun, and easy ways that our community can start engaging today. They can answer a question in Rocket Chat. Now even if they don't know if it's the best 100% accurate answer, they can share a recipe for a problem that they solved. They can post a screen recording of a workflow that they've built or, , share screenshots with us. They can show up at a community hub meeting and start introducing themselves. And lastly, they can write a short post about, , even a mistake that they made. That's pretty bold. Yeah. Sure is. So, Nicole, you've been around the community now for a while. What surprised you most about the people who actually ended up becoming a Rock star? , it's it's definitely their willingness to, , just sacrifice their time and their effort. They're definitely so willing to help. And I remember my first RX last year, it was the first day and everybody's tired. And I'm showing up and I'm walking through the doors of the venue and the Rock stars are there before me, smiling bright eyed, ready to greet me. I think that's just a testament to the kind of character that they have and, , the culture that they've built there. And, , a lot of our Rock stars have never written a line of c sharp or they've never touched a lava template or something. And that's because the community really needs just church administrators who can speak to how nontechnical staff use Rock. , we need advocates that can translate how features, turn into real pastoral incomes. Outcomes, not incomes. Real pastoral outcomes. So if that sounds you to our community, the good news is that you're already most of the way there. And what's really just stopping you from getting there is you kinda have to step out of your comfort zone a little and put yourself out there. That's right. John, from your seat, what makes somebody stand out as a Rock star? I think two things, and I think Nicole already kinda hit on both of them. One is care. You start to care. If you care about the church, if you care about pushing this forward, this initiative, this community forward, then there's nothing can hold you back because the other aspect is this courage. And I I think you have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone. I know a lot of people in our community are introverted, and so, , community doesn't come natural. But they always say that the opposite of courage isn't fear, it's apathy. And so when you care enough, then then you can push through and and have the courage to do something. And and Nicole said, you don't have to be a technical person. You don't have to know all the right answers. Sometimes it's just showing up and just cheerleading for somebody. I've seen people get points for, , a good joke. Prefer people not get points for jokes, but I think there's always this the stigma that says that it's a it's a it's a bar that they can't reach. That's true. So someone would ask me, what does a Rock star look ? I'd probably just say it looks you. , just Mhmm. Just get out there, say a few things in the community. And I think once you get your feet under you, it's actually really pretty easy. Yeah. Definitely. And the best way to get started if somebody's nervous is just to start showing up. Yep. , so challenge yourself throughout the week. , if you're nervous to step out there, , post in your Rocket Chat. , introduce yourself there. Join a community hub. And I'll throw them a softball right now. Okay? If you're listening, leave us a message in the Rocket Chat channel and just let us know how somebody has impacted you in the community, how they've been helpful. And if you're planning to start showing up or wanting to get more involved, tell us about that too. Emily, do you wanna kick us off with Atomic Habits? Yes. So Atomic Habits is a book written by James Clear. And there's this line that keeps coming back to me that is so good. It says, you do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. That's good. And his whole book is focused on personal goals and systems that build habits. But I think this actually has a strong correlation to the goals and systems of an organization. So I think there's a lot of application for churches and how they can make sure that they're not sinking below the level of their systems. How can their systems help sustain the goals that they have? And the thing with churches is I've never met one that doesn't have great goals. In fact, they really excel at this. Right? Visionary leaders setting big goals. They want things better follow-up, stronger discipleship, , better ways to engage their people and help lead them through a spiritual growth plan, connected volunteers. So these goals aren't the issue. The problem is more along the lines of missing systems. Those are more challenging to put into place. But the good news is Rock can be that system. So I think there's a strong correlation between this book and the systems Rock can help provide that can help churches meet the goals they already have in place. So what John described with AI agents can also make Rock even smarter than it's ever been, and that's coming so soon, and that's gonna be super helpful as well. Now the book has four basic laws that it kinda talks about, and this makes you set habits more easily. Those include things making positive change obvious, making it attractive, making it easy, making it satisfying. That's what makes you want to do things. Right? But it's really about this behavior being repeated over and over to become a habit. And when it applies to an organization that has a lot of people, you can't really do this for everyone. So the best thing you can do is make it automatic. Make your systems automatic. So then nobody has to think about it. Right? Because the enemy of church intention is really friction or maybe an individual's memory or the the urgency that comes up in some other ministry component that allows things to slip through cracks. So if you have your systems in place that are setting that up for you, you're not reliant on any of those things that can fail. Because a pastor who wants to follow-up with their guests, they're going to do it unless something comes up that's an urgency or an emergency in the middle of it. So we can help kind of offset that. So that's kind of what I wanted to talk about today. Now I think it would also be really easy to think that automatic is impersonal, it's machines over people. But I wanna be clear what we're talking about today is about setting those automatic systems so your people aren't focusing on process. That's not why you hire pastors and ministry staff. You hire them to focus on people. So let's get those process managements in place automatically and give them the time and the power to focus on their people. What are some ministry habits that belong in a system? Great question. I can think of five. I made a little list that you don't want to rely on someone's memory for, but, honestly, a lot of churches do. So the first one might be a guest follow-up. If someone is new, perhaps you wanna send them a text after you've seen them show up in your systems that they attended for the first time. Now keep in mind, they might have been there kind of in ghost format for a while, but they're they're saying something that allows you to know they're there. So a text shouldn't be, hey. I saw you for the first time. It's something that just encourages them. Thanks for attending. It's a little more generic about what the first day was. But then maybe you have something else that's a week later, and maybe that's a phone call. And maybe you have a second week later. Maybe you invite them to be a part of something. And most churches have some concept around this, a goal, and they do it when they remember. But if you use Rock's workflow engine, you can make this happen consistently for every guest, every time, and that's gonna deliver the service that meets the goals that most churches have today. So guest follow-up is a great way to apply this kind of system, habit forming, goal reaching behavior. Another one is attendance based care triggers. So if somebody stops showing up, they stop volunteering, they aren't attending the ways that they used to, Rock can pick that up for you. You don't have to have rely on someone to eyeballs or memory to do that. The task you can create a task that kinda routes to the right pastor, a trigger that says this person isn't doing the things they used to. And that triggers a pastor to reach out and have a conversation that just says, hey. How are you doing? Let's get together. Let's have a talk. This is not, again, impersonal because we're not sending a form letter or doing something impersonal. It gives you the opportunity just to have a conversation. A third idea of how you can use Rock really well in this way is with a step program. That's built right in. You have discipleship over time, so it's not just one conversation, but it needs to be something that has a system underneath it that people can walk through. It's a sequence. , they they came for the first time, then maybe they joined a group, then maybe they started volunteering, and one thing leads to another. And that's very visible and trackable with simply using RockStep program. Another great idea would be on volunteer retention. Sometimes we have a great focus on getting new volunteers in and great systems around that, but your best volunteers are the ones you already have. And sometimes we don't notice if someone stops volunteering. If someone hasn't served in, , a certain number of weeks, you can set up triggers in Rock that will indicate that and send a message to the team lead that they need to connect with them and just see what's going on. It used to be you had to remember those things, and every individual leader had to remember every one of those things. And that's just too much. It's a lot. A final idea that I had was pastoral awareness, and that could be a wide variety of things. It could be sending a following digest maybe to note birthdays, or maybe there are baptism dates that you wanna acknowledge. So any of these following activities can create a digest that just gives a pastor, maybe a campus pastor or ministry area, an idea of what's happening with their people. Mhmm. For those listening, I would just love to hear, , which ones that they're working through or how they feel they could improve on one of them if they're actually implementing through one of them. Great. Yeah. We'd love to hear that. So make sure you tell us in the Rocket Chat channel. Yeah. All of this is no effort once you have it in place, and it makes your church feel really small and personal. Okay. Another great idea out of the book is called habit stacking. So if you've ever done this personally, this is about attaching a habit to another habit that's already in your life, and it makes it so much easier. Right? So for instance, one example is if you brush your teeth, which I hope everyone brushes their teeth. More than once a day. More than once a day. But let's say you don't floss, and I sometimes fall into that category myself. I think that's a little more common. You can easily put those habits together. Right? You just I'm already brushing my teeth. I will now, floss at the same time. So that's a habit that you can anchor onto something you're already doing, which makes it a lot easier to do. In Rock, what it let's translate it to say, you can create automatic actions based on data and create, , this chain effect of what happens. So you can stack these really good habits for better goal, , reaching your goals. So maybe if someone attends for the first time, we said that already. Right? Some things that you could do with this. You could have a guest follow-up workflow that goes out and says sends a message to someone. Thanks for attending. We'd love to get to know you better. And maybe they come back for the second week. Well, you don't have to treat that as a unique occurrence. that they've been there. this is the second week. So maybe you wanna trigger something that's a part of your discipleship program and, invite them into their next step. Let's say they then do that. They accept that. Maybe they join a group. Once they've joined a group, then maybe you want to invite them into the next step of the discipleship path. And let's say in this case, it's volunteering. Once they volunteered, maybe you start sending a certain digest to them and invite them into leadership. So you can stack these things on top of each other to help a person move through a discipleship program without it having to rely on somebody's memory. Yeah. And so a lot of times people think we have to have lot of staff to do this. Yes. It really is just a configuration within Rock, and and it's not something that on day one, you're just gonna get the whole thing in there. But I think by having this systematic systems mindset of just, okay, I'm gonna do this, and then later we'll add this. But starting with a blueprint is probably a good idea, but it doesn't necessarily require a lot of people. It just requires a good tool and some systems thinking. It's the thinking upfront, right, that bakes those habits into the system. Mhmm. Yeah. Yep. So now we have a staff member not managing the process anymore. It's just showing up for people at the right moment. And it's a onetime investment, and it can run all the time. So one of the things that makes Rock different is that it was not built as a collection of, , little separate tools that are all then kind of bolted together after the fact. It's actually built as a system where you you could consider it Lego. , the features snap onto each other to create larger and bigger processes or automations. And sometimes churches will use a couple pieces by themselves without really understanding or configuring the the full picture. And that's okay to start out there, but there is a lot of power if you start using Rock with by by bolting or by stacking these things on top of each other. So three building blocks that are super helpful that churches use independently, but you could stack together are workflows, the discipleship step process, and AI agents. So let's just kinda walk through how you might be able to use those. Workflows are the engine. Right? Sometimes we call them the muscle. They're the set of rules. You can make things happen repeatedly. They never forget. They never go on vacation. They don't get tired. They don't have a bad week, which I can't say for all of the rest of us. We have those things happen. And the workflow sometimes workflows can be a little intimidating to get started with. Right? But it does it can be as simple, something really simple. So we always encourage everyone just start very simply. One clear trigger, one quick action, and then you're just done. John, what would you say might be the simplest useful workflow that a church could start with? I mean, there's a lot. Right? Mhmm. I think one of the problems is people overengineer their workflows. They try to get to be too fancy, and just something with a few actions and and one activity is all you need. So it might even just be something putting a follow-up on a on a contact form or putting your connection card on into a workflow that will will make a connection for somebody to follow-up with. I would just start with one that's not on the mainstream, something that it doesn't have everybody's eyes on, and just make some quick thing that can take a work that that can take a form from a a a web page, a workflow entry, and make a connection form so someone doesn't fall through a crack. Just find something off to the side. Get success on that, and you could literally build it in two hours. Work with that person who is in that ministry area, and then learn from that, and then share your experience and then work into something maybe a little bit more on the mainstream, which might be the your first time connect card if you don't already Yeah. Have Oh, that's a great idea and easy to get started with. Yeah. And again, if your work your workflow can only have a couple action. That's all it needs. Mhmm. So don't start with something too big. Great idea. Just quick action. So that's workflows. The second is our steps, and that's that discipleship background or backbone that makes the journey of an individual person visible and kind of the journey of everyone through your church system visible. The STEP program is really just a a static list until you add workflows to it. The workflows are what create the action around it, so it makes it easy for you to use the changes in data as somebody completes a step or joins some step for the first time that allow you to then trigger things for that personal pastoral connection. You could start with three easy steps. Again, don't overdo it. Right? Start with attended, however you mark that. Maybe joined a group. That's a really easy one to know. And maybe even started serving. Once you have those three in place, it'd be very simple to set those up, watch them for a little bit, just consider how that's done. Once you feel really good about it, you can keep adding steps from there. So you don't have to have it all figured out just to get started. And then finally, AI agents, that's our intelligence layer. Right? So we've got the the engine. We have the backbone or the structure, and now we we're adding intelligence to it. Workflows and steps, do what you tell them to do. AI agents will add the layer that reason across everything. They'll know everything about a person, and they can surface that and make it actionable. So they're gonna have insights that your workflow can't generate. When you combine workflows, discipleship steps, and AI agents, you're really gonna be able to see the whole picture. And, again, we're not talking about something that's impersonal. Now you're making it really personal. The cool thing is this is all inside Rock. Right? You're not choosing between tools. You really just stack them. Yeah. Definitely. I think sometimes people think that, , AI is an impersonal thing. And it and and by itself, it is. But it's almost saying, okay. Should we not use our desktop computers? It's the desktop computer is just a tool that helps you be more personable. And it's the same thing with AI. It's just a more advanced desktop computer that helps us be more personal. Mhmm. And the final point from this book that I think could be applicable to people in the church staff is is James Clear's 1% principle. You don't have to fix everything, which is what we keep saying. , just start with something simple. And he really breaks it down. He says, actually, you just need to get 1% better. And I love that. That's so approachable, don't you think? Definitely. And he says, if you actually get 1% better every day, at the end of the year, you'll be 37% better. So that makes some what might feel a major change, get one third better. It breaks it down into something that's totally actionable. So I would say if you apply that to what we're talking about here, you could pick just one thing that should consistently happen but doesn't right now. So some good ideas that you could pick from if you don't know where to start could be guest follow-up. We talked about that. Have three touch points of guest follow-up over thirty days, a text, a call, an invite to take a next step, perhaps an attendance drop trigger. So your ERA, your estimated regular attender, knows when somebody stops engaging. Put a trigger off of that. , send something to a pastor in a list format so they know who has had a change in their ERA status, and they could reach out and do something personal with it. That can be associated with even just following individuals. If you have good following setup, that could be really helpful. And then maybe a birthday or anniversary, digest for your staff leaders. We've done that here, and we've talked about it on podcasts in the past. And it's just a great way to actually be intentionally personal. And then perhaps maybe that I haven't served in six weeks or I haven't served in two months or whatever the frequency makes sense for your church. Send that to the team lead that's over that team, and they can they'll be in the best position to make a personal connection. Yeah. So if there's a church that's newer to Rock and they might not have a workflow built out, , what's the first brick or the first step for them? Yeah. Great question. And I think a lot of people are in that in that position. And when they start on Rock for the first time and they jump into Rocket Chat, and it looks everybody's so far ahead, it can be really discouraging. Mhmm. So I think that's exactly the right question, Nicole. And I would say if they have nothing set up right now in this area, that guest follow-up workflow is maybe the best place to start. And a digest a following digest is actually even simpler. So I would pick one of those two as the one to dig in on. Yeah. That's great. And I'd really love to hear from The Rock Churches what's one habit at their church that should be automatic, but maybe isn't that they can work on. Well, thank you for walking us through that. That was really helpful. I love, the idea of habit stacking. I know when I'm at the gym and I'm on the treadmill and I'm reading, I feel unstoppable. It's just so powerful. But speaking of Rock stars, and, , all the ways that they can get engaged, this week we saw them all during our community builder call. That was really fun. And this is just one of the perks that rockstars get. They, have the ability to ask the core team their questions and then have, , kind of a clear pipeline to them and get answers back. Some other perks are also the Rockstar channel. I think there's a Rockstar portal as well. And then of course, , we do our best to honor them at Rx and give them the appreciation that they deserve. A cool t shirt could be enough. And a cool t shirt and a cool sticker. I had somebody reach out to me this morning. They're , I can't be at the conference, but I really want a sticker. Can you send it to me? So yeah, we'll make sure that gets to the person. But thank you guys for joining us today. I think we covered a lot. It's a good conversation there. For our listeners, , make sure that you subscribe to our YouTube channel where you can watch this episode. And then also join the ROTcast Rocky Chat channel and help jump in the conversation and share your thoughts with us. We'll see you next week.