Podcast Episode 192: Episode 165: Special Edition with Bayne Hulburt

Description

Join us for a special edition of Rockcast with Bayne Hulburt from RiverPointe Church. Explore Bayne's journey, discover how their church leverages data measurement for ministry, and learn the pivotal role of Rock's ERA tool in efficiently "closing the back door." Show Notes:River Pointe Church- riverpointe.orgBayne’s Sessions at RX23 and RX22From Numbers to Nudges: Transforming your Data into Actionable Data https://community.rockrms.com/subscriptions/rx23/from-java-to-jesus-how-wi-fi-presence-tracking-measures-coffee-house-to-chuMigrating Your Giving to a New Platform: https://community.rockrms.com/subscriptions/rx2022/migrating-your-giving-to-a-new-platformERA in Rock: https://community.rockrms.com/Rock/BookContent/5#person&familyanalyticsWi-Fi Presence https://community.rockrms.com/Rock/BookContent/36#welcomeRock SponsorsWe are thankful for our Rock Sponsors and their support of the Rock Community. Visit their websites through the link above to learn how they can help your ministry and confirm that those you work with are as invested in the success of Rock as you are!

Transcribed Content

This episode of Rockcast is brought to you by Rock partner Triumph Tech, a full service specialist partner. Rock partners provide crucial support for Spark Development Network and important services for the Rock community. Connect with Triumph Tech today at rockrms.com/partners. Welcome to this special edition of Rockcast. This is the podcast that explores the intersection of technology, ministry, and community with ROCCRMS. I'm Emily Forman, and with me today for this special edition is Bain Holbert of River Point Church and Lori Yocum from our Spark team here in the Phoenix area. Welcome, Bain. Hello. Thanks so much for having me. We're thrilled to have you. Now, you have at your church been on Rock since the early days. Right? I think it was 2017 when you guys found Rock. Is that right? Yes. That was when we had first set up a sandbox for me to plan for a few months before going live. A lot has happened since then, and we want to get into that so the community can kind of hear and follow along with your story and the things that River Point's doing with Rock. But tell us a little bit first how people in the community might recognize you if your name sounds familiar. I'm the I'm the goofy, lanky guy with really long hair. You might see me in rocket chat trying to pick low hanging fruit for easy points. You might have also seen me at the conference the last couple years. I've been fortunate enough to present, so I get around a little bit. Yes. I think you've shared all the things not to do a couple years back. , you learn from my mistakes. Right? That was my favorite session ever. I I still add to my low light reel just in case we need to do a v two on that one. I heard from so many people that were , yes. That is so relatable. I understand. I've done all the same things. I'm glad I'm not alone. Yes. I've I've broken far more things than I've fixed or solved as far as Rock goes, for sure. It's nice to be able to set the tone and say, hey. We're all learning, growing, and human here. We're gonna talk about some cool things that have been done. But to get there, we've had to jump over a few things that have come in our path in the meantime. Yes. Broken many eggs to get to to our current Rock omelet for sure. The Rock omelet. Now, Bane, you've had an interesting, introduction into ministry, and I wanna hear a little bit about that. And you've also, because of that, had several different roles at River Point. And so how did that happen, and how did you step into the Rock space? Yeah. We'll try and make that as short as possible. I I started here as a volunteer musician way back in it had to be 2011. I had a I had a buddy who worked here in our facilities department doing event setups really, , kinda just slept in tables and chairs around, and his mom was a support set up in our missions department. And when we were in college, pretty much one of us would skip class every day because we had opposite schedules, and we'd sit around making music and then show up on test days and crush some exams. And so one day his mom said, You should really audition to play guitar at our church. And I kinda chuckled because I I wasn't exactly a church material at the time. But long story short, I wound up auditioning to play guitar as a part of the worship team here. And as a wide eyed doughy, , 20 year old, they put me on acoustic guitar too and let me start playing guitar. And so I played guitar here every week for about a year and a half, and they roped me into going on a a student ministry summer trip with some high schoolers to Florida. They I I really got conned into it by a t, and he he said, hey, man. We'll put you in a room with some guys that'll be really well behaved and you help lead worship. It'll it'll be great. And the room of guys were not well behaved. They were they were easily the the second worst room of dudes there, and it was brutal and exhausting and eventful. And I came back and the the student pastor that was leading that trip, Teres, he took me out to lunch. He said, I wanna hire you. I don't know what for. I haven't asked my boss yet, but I wanna hire you. And I said, Yeah, let's do it, sure, why not? And so I started as an intern in student ministry in July of twenty eleven. Yeah, and that was where it started. So I was an intern for all of about three months, and they rolled me into part time staff. It was the same as the intern hours, the intern pay is just a slightly more glorious title. I was part time for about six months, then I wound up full time. Then through a bunch of people leaving to go do other things, I fell backwards into being a student pastor here for five years. So I did that and started leading that dreaded trip to Florida, and it grew way out of hand. And so the last year that I was involved with that, we took 300 kids and about 60 adults, which Wow. Translates to six buses going from Houston to Florida. And so I was running logistics on that and had spreadsheets going to try and find what's our registration limit here. Is it the number of beds that we have reserved in Florida? Is it the number of chairs we can fit in what will be our our worship center equivalent down at the at the conference center there? Or is it bus seats? And so in Photoshop, I created a scale replica of their conference center and called their facilities guys so we could measure a chair so that I could build a scale model of our stage and the seating to try and find what the upper limit was on on what what is our limiting number here? How many people can we take? And it was somewhere around that kind of red yarn rain man moment of doing all of that math concurrently that people here started realizing I didn't quite tick a student pastor, there's something a little different about how my brain worked. So I stayed in students for a while, and one day, our executive pastor and senior pastor sat me down and said, hey. We wanna we wanna break up with our with our current database that we're using. We don't know what we wanna use. We know it needs to be able to do x, y, and z. And we think that you're the best guy that we have around to figure out what we should use. And so, yeah, it's that that I said, sure. If that's how I can best serve in this season, I I guess I'll do that. And it sounded so unappealing at the time. No offense to all of the only people listening to this are all church data people, and it'll sound so offensive. But at the time, I did not want to do that at all. But I was I was engaged, and it was about two months before the wedding. There wasn't that many options. And so I said, sure. I I I guess. And and the the the two big caveats was, I guess the the biggest caveat, it it had to be able to do mobile check-in. That was something that we we had offered mobile check-in on our legacy system, but it was two volunteers running a Google Voice number. Oh, wow. They were manually checking people in as they would text in, and then they would have other volunteers running those tags to the various buildings on campus where those kids would be checking into. Wow. And so Rock became the , we can solve that. Mhmm. And so we we decided to go with Rock, and the first big project that we'd built out with our Rock partner was mobile checking because this predated mobile checking out of the box. And so they they they built a a version of it, and we put printers in every single room. And then we horribly offended some mobile checking volunteers that that was their job Sunday mornings, and they loved that. And we tried our best to say, this just means that you can smile at the actual people as they're walking in and hand them their tags. You'd still help them. We'd love for your help still. Yeah. You just don't have to run back and forth across campus now. So that was that was really what what landed on on Rock was the the things you can do with mobile and and texting. Very interesting to hear what precipitated the move for different churches at various times. So that's a that's the first story I've heard that. Your volunteers mostly survived in their new roles? ? Yeah. No. They they did great. They they all they all realized pretty quickly that that, , this this isn't a hey. We're not trying to eliminate your roles. This is just way more scalable than the way we're currently doing. Definitely. So as you're in a role where you're taking ministry challenges and converting them to solutions, you have been adjusting the way you ask your questions, and and you've said better questions equals better processes. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means in terms of how you formulate questions now to your ministry staff? Yeah. I think I think the first breakthrough I had early on, it was tricky because I I didn't know, but I was still the most knowledgeable person here. So I just make up answers and then jump in rocket chat and try and find the real answers or wait until we had our dev time coming with our with our Rock partner to be , , I don't have time for this right now, but Thursday morning between nine and and noon, I'll probably be able to dedicate some time to figuring this out for you. And so our Rock partner made me look very good over the years. They still do. But, really, people would come to me, my my coworkers, , our our teams here, and they would come with their sort of predefined solution on what they think that they needed, which often include using the the word workflow wrong. Yes. It's great. Hey. Can we get a workflow for this? I'm , that's that's not even close to a workflow. That's that's not even a a data view. I mean, this this is just ? So people really love some of the buzzwords. Hey. Can we get a report for this? Can we can we get a workflow? That sounds so helpful. I'm , that's not even what a what a workflow is. So I I started asking people when they come to me with what they think they needed, what problem are you trying to solve? And and I really wanna get in at at square one, really no later than square two on whatever it is to solve this because there were so many so many moments where I was brought in kinda way too late in the problem solving aspect. And it's everything from an audience that was needed for a communication that was going out to trying to build out, , something simple a merge template. But by the time they raised their hand to say, can you help with this? They had, , really convoluted the problem. Maybe the the the worst that it ever gotten was they were they were rebuilding the website. Our website still isn't on Rock. It's my the greatest failure of my career. I've tried so hard since 2017 to get us to build our website on Rock. We've redone it twice since then and still not there. But what is happening is we're slowly integrating Rock pages to to take over. Mhmm. But maybe the best example was they had recruited a a web developer to essentially build an API call to set up a a very fancy groups finder page because they wanted it to look different than the groups finder page that we were using, which was stark because they we don't use it for our external website. And so I I had to build all these extra attributes, and their API call would break every six months right before groups launch. Mm-mm. And they would never just admit that they had an error in their code. And that lasted about a year before we just rebuilt it all in Rock exactly as they wanted. Made it identical and just switched it without even telling anybody. And but that was one of those they had just come to me at Square 1 and said, we'd really love if the groups finder could get a facelift. Mhmm. So we can do that. That is an easy thing to do. It's just nobody's ever asked for it. Yep. And and and the scope that we're running at, , we've got three campuses and, I I don't know, a little over a hundred people on staff. And so I can't I can't try and preempt everybody's needs for every department. Right. So I just create try and create a system of, , create safe spaces to ask questions and then reward people when they ask good questions and reward people when they've given up specifics to build out the helpful thing right on the first try. But, yeah, that's that's the biggest thing is come to me with your problem. Don't come to me with what you think the solution is because there's that or they would there's this, , the the Rock rumor mill where one one support staff member will say, oh, Rock can't do that. And, yeah, that just gets telephone games throughout campus. And I've got, , people using Wufoo forms and sign up geniuses. And I'm , why are we doing this this way? But I so that we can build a forum on Rock. , our highly customizable database that that we do all sorts of stuff with, it can actually build incredible forms and minimize all of these hours of data entry that that y'all are doing. And so I don't know. I'm starting to ramble, but that's the the biggest thing is, , trying to encourage people to come to their problems, not what they think the solution is. That's right. And there is some continual education on that because of staff attrition or because of last minute needs. Sometimes there's an emergency solution needed and somebody just runs with something, which is kind of understandable. But circling back to your in house Rock team is sure a good idea if you had to stand something up, but you need it to last for a long time. Might be a better solution that you could you could get to after the emergency needs been met that weekend. Oh, yeah. We've we've got one of those rolling out this week where it was a year end contribution statements, everybody's favorite. We still print a ton of those. And Mhmm. So we've had a well, we really want this cover letter to go with it, but we want it to have their name and everything so it seems personal. Otherwise, it just seems impersonal. So they'll print everything, and then they'll get 13 people in the conference room to pair the letters with the statements and just do this horrible thing. And so we now have a a LABA short code in our contribution statement template that flies in a cover letter that includes their name and details. And that was one of those where, , it it was one of those deadlines that came in where it'd be so great if we could have this in the next twelve minutes or even yesterday would be perfect. Yesterday would be ideal. Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm sure we're not unique in this, but but here, most of the requests that hit our Rock team are beyond urgent. Mhmm. And so I I give a lot of no. We can't do that right now. But for next year, we can absolutely have that ready to go. What you can't say is, I'll act I'll have it ready in four days. It just that'll be too late for y'all's timeline. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now one of the features that Rock has and has had for a long time, but you guys utilize it, you talked about it at conference was the ERA, the estimated regular attender in Rock. And you use that to close the back door of your church. How do you do that? Yeah. The first step was trying to to teach our staff what that meant because, , it's built in. We can't change the definition of it all, but but it's great the way it is. So I understand all of that. But with Rock's thing being Rock can do everything, of course, the initial request are, well, can we tweak it to to be this or that? I'm , no. It is it is what it is. And, , most of the the the men on staff went right to, , earned run average. We we had baseball stats in in Rock, but what we use that estimated regular attender for, the most helpful thing is every month, we have a job that runs Mhmm. To pull everybody that that has lost their ERA status in the previous thirty days, which it pulls in the entire families because it's a family analytics thing, but it it sends that out to each of our campus pastors so that they can have a touch point with with people because we're well aware that rarely, not not never, but rarely is it just, oh, that sermon offended me. I'm out. Or, oh, that that I can't believe they played that song in church. I'm I'm leaving. But typically, when people fall off and discontinue their giving, there's a there's a life moment that's happened. It's the loss of a job or a family member who's sick or or something that's causing them to redirect those funds. But most of the life events that cause those to happen, we view as great ministry opportunities and moments that not everybody's gonna raise their hand in church and say, I'm struggling with this right now. Yeah. And so what it's absolutely not is a list of people to call and say, hey, we noticed you stopped your giving. Is everything okay? But it's just a touch point of, , how is everything? Yeah. How can we be praying for you? Is is everything okay? And and some of those are met with, well, yeah, we just think you y'all are dumb now. And it's , okay. Great. Well, , there's there's a lot of churches in Houston, and, hopefully, you'll find one that's less dumb than us. Yes. It is absolutely the goal of Rock to create ministry moments by showing things , oh, somebody's typical patterns have adjusted. Something's going on there. And you're right. Usually, there's a ministry moment required. That's when we move from the technology to the people. But that's that's exactly what Rock is intended to do. So that's that's pretty cool. You now we mentioned earlier, you spoke at Rx. I think it was twenty two. And then you spoke again at Rx twenty three. And this time your topic, you mentioned that you can't manage what you haven't measured. So tell us a little bit about what you do in Rock to make this possible. Yeah. We try and automate as as much measuring as as possible. A lot of that is done through metrics. But, really, it was kind of birth out of the the thought process was attributes that don't store historical values. And and some of those are working towards it, know, I'd I'd hey. Can we get a, , count of of current members, which for us is just a connection status, really easy to pull. And then it'd be followed with, well, what about this same time last year? What was it? I'm , that's a great question. Yeah. I don't know. And then so that started. Okay. Cool. We can build a metric that'll take our membership count. I think we have it run weekly, which might be a little bit excessive, but each of our campuses have membership classes that happen at a different point in time, and so we just let it happen weekly. That way, no matter what the ask is that comes my way, I've got a really good table of data to pull from. That's the other big one. If you're if you're new in in Rock administration, half of the battle is trying to guess what your boss is gonna ask you six months from now. And and so I I I've got a list on my desk right now of other monthly metrics I wanna build out. We've just kicked off the the data automation tools that have been sitting there forever. And we've looked at forever. But I've never had enough fires extinguished at the time. They're , alright. Let's start this thing. But we got that running, and we inactivated, , 70% of our records, which you should have seen facial expressions. And I was , yeah. , we inactivated about 74,000 records. No big deal. And but now it's, okay. Great. We can set monthly metrics for active records by campus, and that's a helpful metric over time that it's not head counts of attendance. It's it's based on engagement, and that's a that's a great thing. , other other things that you can just kinda time stamp monthly, number of people that you have on serve teams. And if you're at a multisite setup, you've probably learned this already, but do it for each campus because the follow-up question's gonna be, can we get that by campus? That'd great. So just start everything with with that in mind. Small groups. Right? Whatever you call your equivalent of small groups at your church, you'd set monthly metrics for small group membership. And ours are semester based, so we'll see a lot of flux. Where early spring, that number is really impressive. In early summer, that number is really depressing. And but it's helpful to have that that, , value over time so that you can you can see. But really year over year, I think is probably the most helpful in terms of long term celebration or panic is, , don't look at it semester to semester, but year over year, how's how's that looking? Yeah. And one of the biggest challenges when you're trying to create those metrics upfront is exactly what you mentioned, to prethink what else is gonna be asked and how you define something even. Sometimes different people have different definitions of a term or a measurement in their heads. And so you have to determine is what they're asking for what they want? And am I interpreting it correctly? Is this what they're going to want the next time they revisit the metric? , what are their next two questions that are gonna come up, and how do we get there And so there's there's a lot involved in creating metrics that are valuable to the organization way more than just building them. It's the worst guessing game there is. And there's absolutely I can guarantee there's going to be verbiage that your staff uses internally that means one thing, but it's also a term used in Rock that means something entirely different. And so they'll come to me asking for active attendees, and I know that if one of my staff are asking me that, they want engaged attendees. Attendees that they're not members yet, but they're giving or serving or in a group. Mhmm. And but if I were to literally just take that in Iraq and say active attendees, it's gonna be connection status attendee with a record status of active, which will not be that group. It'll be much closer now that we run data automation, but two months ago, it would have been horribly off. So that's the other thing is, yeah, figuring out, , the the Rock dictionary as well as your church's dictionary and and knowing when to translate between the two. And that's where I'm just really grateful. I've been on staff here for twelve years now and and managing our Rock environment since we were on Rock. So I am the keeper of all the definitions at this point. But I've got I've got buddies in the area that, , they're their church's fifth Rock person in five years. And combing their stuff, nobody knows why anything is the way that it is. And Oh, note to future self, document everything. Oh, the the descriptions just help future you. And if it's not future you, whoever does your job. Yes. Because the reality is you're not going to retire at the church that you're at now. Somebody will come behind and have to figure out all of your things. And I say this mostly to myself because I skip the description field so often. It's easy to do. Oh, it's so easy because none of us have time for it. Right. But set up your successor, whoever that person's gonna be, whether you leave on good terms or bad terms, don't don't cripple your church that you're at now by not leaving breadcrumbs on why everything is the way that it is. Please fill out the top of the workflow with your description. Use the change logs. Those are the worst to try and comb through later, especially after multiple people have touched them. Yes. It it's all the worst. And we and we're the problem. And It is. It we're moving fast. And then sometimes we don't recognize when we move from, I'm just trying this to, okay. This is now set in stone. So if you don't put it in at the beginning and then tweak it as you tweak the process you're working on, you can easily transition and cross that line without considering it. And now you've moved on and and you forgot to to put that in place. Yeah. Test becomes Yes. The thing in production because it worked on the first trial. They're close enough to working. And now there's another fire somewhere else that needs your attention. Through our system. I think we all have the same problem, Spain. Okay. Now a fun question is, what ways do you see yourself using Rock in the future? Or what are some ideas that you have that you really want to try out or even just move forward with? Yeah. We've got we've got two big ones. The coolest one, the one that excites me the most is Wi Fi presence tracking, which it's not new. It was the big thing to talk about at the conference, I think, five years ago. And, , I go running into into my my boss's office all excited. Look at what we can do. And of course, once you start getting into hours involved and price tags involved, it's , well, we don't have time or money for that. But finally, we've got a coffee house at one of our campuses. So our first two campuses are out in the suburbs where if you have really good music and really good children's ministry, you'll be fine as a church. That's really odd because people have kids and they're, Oh no, what am I going to do with this child that's misbehaving? We have to go to church. Fix this. And that's worked for us pretty well. And then we opened a third campus inside the loop of Downtown Houston where everybody's really cool, everybody makes pretty incredible money, and nobody has kids. We had to really rethink our our strategy because really good music isn't that helpful when you're a few blocks from the house of blues because there's really good music right there all the time. And so we we opened a coffee house. We inherited a couple buildings after a church merger, and one of them, we had a vision to renovate into one of the largest coffee shops in Houston, and it doesn't have the church name on it. It doesn't look the church. It's it's there's a very slim alleyway between the two, and so it's kind of our covert ops. And all the money that comes in from that benefits our local mission. So it's rolled in under our nonprofit. But I was asked quite a while ago, hey. We'd love to start grabbing information for people to get on the Wi Fi. They're pretty typical, , name and email that happens anywhere you go where you wanna hop on the Wi Fi. And, of course, they didn't ask me this directly. This is another asking Mhmm. The right people the right questions. They went to our our our on-site IT team that we contract out, and they had the the presence in mind to come to me and say, oh, yeah. We could just pull in a random system for this, but could we do this in Rock? I'm , oh, could we please do this in Rock? That'd be great. So we finally have all of that ironed out and are rolling that out down there. And so that'll create records in our church database of people that have never been to our church and plenty of people that have no interest in coming to our church. So it's been a really interesting data strategy practice to figure out how do we insulate these records from getting emailed of, we need volunteers for kids camp. Can we count you in? Because that that would be, , horrifying for a a coffee shop Yes. Atheist to get that email. And then, , we've all seen the email replies that come in when you've emailed somebody that doesn't wanna get emailed. But the helpful point there, another metric we can pull is we know that people have found our church through that coffee shop. We know that people have started attending because of that coffee shop, but we don't have a great tangible metric to pull for that. And so this won't catch all of those, but it will, , tag those devices and those records. And then we can see that if they pop up on a on a Sunday morning that it's a it's a very safe assumption that they made it to a service. And, man, we have a metric for this many people, , q one started attending that had been to the coffee shop prior to ever coming to our church or at least prior to ever letting us know that they were there through a welcome card or something that. So that's what I'm most excited about. As far as the rest of our team, we just replaced a terrible process for events. And if if you're at a sizable church does a lot of events, , all of our ministries that support that are our business office, , our finance team, our facilities team, and our Rock team are all very lean in comparison to, , every other department that we have. So there really isn't an option other than efficiency. And so for events that , we use room management for facility approval. That's been a wonderful tool. If you're not on that yet, you can't afford not to be using that. Go set up room management. But on top of that, for, , financial approval, we had forms that were spreadsheet that lived on a common drive server, and it was, well, go download that spreadsheet and then send it to our finance team, then they'll send you back another form that gives us everything that we need to set up an event registration. And so maybe what will be the most used workflow that we've built since we had to, , develop our own mobile check-in, we're calling it the decor form. Right? It's an acronym. Hang with me here. The digital event creation and online registration form. Okay. And that is the the kind of the one stop shop of it pulls everything that we need for financial approval. And whether that's a yes or no, it will alert the the event administrator of whether or not their event is approved. And then it kicks it over to the Rock team to set up the registration. And once that's done, it'll also let them know and send them their their URL slug and all of that good stuff. And so that's probably, , the most helpful where I wind up in a meeting and, hey. Why are we doing it this way? Yeah. And it's, well, somebody else told us that Rock couldn't do that. And I'm , what the this is this is textbook. We absolutely should be using Rock and only Rock for this. And so that's the other big thing is, , if you do find yourself in a season where you're not putting out fires, don't be nosy and ask other administrators. Just sit in on their team meeting and say, hey. Why are why are we using a Wufu form? Or why are we using SignUpGenius? Which that's just personal because those are the two that get used the most around here where I'm , can we please not anything else? And I'm sure that all of your churches have an equivalent where there are departments that are using workarounds for things that 100% should be in Rock, whether it just is easier because it's in Rock or the data trail is near or quite frankly, it's much more secure to keep information such as teenagers addresses in student ministry should very much live in your Rock server and not on a Google Sheet. That is that is just it's it's so much more secure. So be nosy. Go kick the door in on other meetings and just be a fly on the wall because they'll do stuff that'll make you throw up in your mouth a little bit for how incorrect it is, and it some of it'll be a five minute fix and Rock. Yep. And, usually, it's all well intended. Right? It's they're really busy, and they only understand a certain system, so they just go quickly do what it is they know how to do. Or maybe they feel , I know our Rock team's super busy, and this wouldn't hit their this isn't Easter Christmas priority level at the church. They don't have time for this, and they might be making an assumption. Where showing up, being friendly, and asking questions, you can absolutely overcome those things that you didn't even know existed but live in somebody's mind or assumptions. Yeah. That's a big one. Oh, we thought you were too busy for that. We did this for you. Yes. Yeah. Don't don't let them do that to you. Don't let them nice you into it. Do it do it for them. Future you will thank you for sure. Show up, smile, and help them win, and they'll come your way the next time. Absolutely. That's it. Well, Bane, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate hearing your story and what all is happening with Rock at River Point. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. Hang in there y'all, and just a quick thank you to the team at Spark and all you guys do to lead the community. I've literally gotten more thank you notes from you guys over the years than I've gotten from my own boss. So keep it up. Y'all are amazing. Keep doing what you do, and thanks so much for all you guys are doing for the kingdom. Well, thank you very much. It's something we're all doing together, and everybody has their part and their role, and it really is such a community initiative. It's an incredible thing to be a part of, and we appreciate your perspective on that as well. Alright. Thanks so much. Thank you to all of you who are listening, and we ask that you don't miss the next podcast. Make sure you're subscribing wherever you get your podcasts and join us again for the next episode of Rockcast. Do a church that loves the idea of using Rock but hasn't taken that leap yet? With managed hosting, churches of any size can get access to Rock's amazing technology, hassle free. With just one click, Rock's managed hosting removes the roadblocks that might stop a church from switching to Rock by making the process simple. Churches get the ease of a SaaS church management system without losing any of Rock's powerful features. Are you ready to take the next step or share with another local church? Visit rockrms.com/hosting today.